Is breathing important?

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amin101	Is breathing important?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 33 (06/22/09 10:00 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hey guys, I thought I might open this new topic about breathing, I wanted to know your views about it. I bought a device called Power Lung, its a sort of exercises for your lungs. It helps you restore the correct breathing. I have used it and it has benefited me in terms of health and also my singing as well. I believe that breathing properly is important, but obviously its not everything about singing. What are your views about breathing?
JollyJake		#1	[-]
Posts: 2328 (06/23/09 9:43 AM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Breathing is important, yes, but, I think that many teachers focus on it too much: some make it sound like breathing is the secret to high notes. The most important thing is the development and conditioning of the vocal cords, but I'm not saying breathing isn't important. Brett chooses to develop the cords of a student, and then hit breathing later on. I agree with him; unless there is a serious problem which need to be addressed, I would worry about breathing "later." This device will help you! Do it!! Breath capacity is important, man. Everyone needs more. Jesse posted this in 2005 (Wow, that was a long time ago!! FYI this post was pulled from Archive # 1): JesseNemitz wrote: Yeah guys breathing doesn't actually make the tone (your vocal chords do believe it or not) so I don't think its number one in LEARNING to sing. However, in order to sing high notes with the BEST possible sound, you HAVE to master diaphrmatic breathing. No way around that. The point of the speech level philospohy is this: No amount of correct breathing is going to magically make the high notes appear. Correct breathing + Good vocal chord technique = GREAT SINGING Correct breathing + BAD Vocal chord technique = REALLY BAD SINGING Correct breathing + Average Vocal chord technique = AVERAGE SINGING Incorrect breathing + Good vocal chord technique = AVERAGE or GOOD Singing Incorrrect breathing + Average Vocal chord technique = AVERAGE SINGING Incorrect breathing + BAD Vocal chord technique = MOST AWFUL SINGING IMAGINABLE That is just teaching philosophy. Most of us are self-taught in many ways, so feel free to delve into breathing if you like, just don't forget the main focus: Vocal training! Jake "Work very, very hard - be grounded, be passionate about what you do and find the thing within yourself to make you want to be you. Go beyond me, be yourself, say what you want to say." - Josh Groban "The better you are at vocalizing, the better you will be at singing." - Musiciano Last Edited By: JollyJake 06/23/09 9:46 AM. Edited 2 times.
musiciano		#2	[-]
Posts: 1034 (06/23/09 12:27 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	I want to warn you to try and avoid going too deeply into the "how to" or "what to do" journey, you will be embarrassed years later down the road when you realize that your body knew how to do this all along, that the main thin in between you and good singing was your rational, conceptual mind. Singing is easy and very natural. It isn't what you think it is, it's not a grand, amazing, scientific, intellectual assignment for which you need to know and study a lot for. The answers are not in books or in teachers or in anything outside of you. This is a find out for yourself thing. This is an ask your body and discover for yourself journey. It always ultimately must lead to this. You are singing yourself, your instrument is yourself. So before you go out there asking questions, make sure you've asked your body first. Breathing is naturally occurring all the time, that's why you are able to even ask such a question. Singing has been made up to look like such an difficult, grand task. It is so freaking easy you, I'm telling you. You are buying into all the ridiculous, false myths about how difficult and how this and that singing is. There is SO much mis-information out there. I wanted to warn you about this. Singing is easy. There are levels of easy because there are usually many habits that need to be undone to allow singing to be as easy as it naturally is. Undoing these unnatural habits is what it's all about and that my be easy or difficult depending on how stubborn your mind is. It's all the false notions, ideas, conceptions and expectations that tangle us up. And we can thank an insane society for mis-informing us day in and day out about the reality of things. Don't believe anything you hear other people tell you, find out for yourself. You will probably be wrong about what you find out 100% of the time, but at least it will be your discovery and you can keep asking questions from the answers you have discovered for yourself. This is a mystery we're talking about here. Pardon the "philosophical" essay, I am aware that we are in a society that doesn't have much appreciation for stuff like this, they label it "crazy" or "coocky" or "wtf?" or say this or that. The seems to only appeal to a small percentage of people, and lucky them! They are the ones on the path to true freedom. The rest are just not mature enough.
JollyJake		#3	[-]
Posts: 2328 (06/23/09 12:32 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Good post! I agree, I never understood how a guy could sing a huge high C until I did it myself! It's a discovery process. Jake "Work very, very hard - be grounded, be passionate about what you do and find the thing within yourself to make you want to be you. Go beyond me, be yourself, say what you want to say." - Josh Groban "The better you are at vocalizing, the better you will be at singing." - Musiciano
sofus987		#4	[-]
Posts: 6 (06/24/09 5:02 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	When it comes to singing, instead of breathing I would use the term support. One of the best definitions on support that I know of is this: "Support This means working against the natural urge of the diaphragm to release the air that has been inhaled. This is achieved by resisting its movement. During singing, the waist muscles and solar plexus are pushed outwards, the abdomen around the navel is gradually pulled in in a constant and sustained manner, and the back muscles are tightened. The muscles in the loin are trying to push the pelvis backwards while the muscles in the abdomen are trying to pull the pelvis up under your body. This battle created between the abdominal muscles and the muscles in the loin is a valuable and important part of the support. The support must however happen in a sustained and continuous manner as though working against a resistance, for as long as a sound is being produced. When the muscle contractions stop being sustained and continuous (for instance, if you can not pull the abdomen around the navel inwards any further or push the muscles of the waist or solar plexus outwards any further) then there is usually no more support. It is important to conserve your support energy so you do not waste it or use it at the wrong point in time. Do not use support before it is necessary for example when the singing gets difficult, such as on high notes or at the end of a phrase. Support is hard physical work so you should be in good physical condition." (CVI) Last Edited By: sofus987 06/24/09 5:05 AM. Edited 1 times.
musiciano		#5	[-]
Posts: 1034 (06/24/09 8:50 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	The "support" suggestion you have given is based on distrust of the amazing intelligence of the body. You are talking about creating a "battle" to fight a "natural" tendency. I would not even like to pretend like I endorse such things. So count me out of agreement or alignment with that nonsense. I want to take this opportunity to warn against really ridiculous and harmful advice out there. It wasn't until I found a good voice teacher that I realized why I always intuitively knew that there was something wrong with all my previous voice teachers. Be very careful who you listen to. The criteria is, can they apply what they talk about? If you see a bunch of effort being made or shaking tongues, necks, throats, whatever... you know they are being inefficient, if they are mean, arrogant, egotistical and rude... they don't know who they are. Don't listen to all teachers. The sad thing is, there are only very few who are truly good and work to align one with nature instead of going to "battles" with it. The teacher you listen to, admire, respect and love will be a reflection of where you are at at that point in time. So you can't really lose, your valued teacher is a reflection of where you are at in life.
sofus987		#6	[-]
Posts: 6 (06/24/09 9:52 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Well I wouldn't call it nonsense though. And it's definately not harmful, actually if you don't support right that's where you'll run into trouples. The quote is taken from Cathrine Sadolin founder of CVT. And I have trust in her views.
musiciano		#7	[-]
Posts: 1034 (06/24/09 9:53 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	I don't. But I respect you and her.
leonetha		#8	[-]
Posts: 1674 (06/24/09 5:59 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	sofus987 wrote: This means working against the natural urge of the diaphragm to release the air that has been inhaled. This is achieved by resisting its movement. During singing, the waist muscles and solar plexus are pushed outwards, the abdomen around the navel is gradually pulled in in a constant and sustained manner, and the back muscles are tightened. The muscles in the loin are trying to push the pelvis backwards while the muscles in the abdomen are trying to pull the pelvis up under your body. This battle created between the abdominal muscles and the muscles in the loin is a valuable and important part of the support. The support must however happen in a sustained and continuous manner as though working against a resistance, for as long as a sound is being produced. When the muscle contractions stop being sustained and continuous (for instance, if you can not pull the abdomen around the navel inwards any further or push the muscles of the waist or solar plexus outwards any further) then there is usually no more support. It is important to conserve your support energy so you do not waste it or use it at the wrong point in time. Do not use support before it is necessary for example when the singing gets difficult, such as on high notes or at the end of a phrase. Support is hard physical work so you should be in good physical condition." (CVI) I agree with you about the goal of support. there are adventages in learning to sing like that - buit there are disadvantages too. I figued out for myself that one can also learn to stop the airflow that way - and most important - and then i just go into detail from musicianos point - when you - manipulate one thing in your body - you brain will apply this command to the rest of it - sometimes if you make your diaphragm do what its noturaly not doing - your throat or you stomach - start doing what they are not doing. naturally. So - i guess we can all learn to play with it very well - but FIRST we must lear to sing completely natural and after that we can learn some methods and tricks...if we like. But the basis the foundaiton - must be natural because they beocme the habbit. My voice teacher says we should trust that the body will breath out and not help it do so. And that the voice is flowing naturally on the air... Imagine an airplane - it cant fly without the air right? same with the voice. The air is what makes them vibrate. The air exists without the airplane - its just there your breahting happens naturally all the time - singing - the voice is "added" to it. Its like a building you know? The breating is like..the most basic. Then on it we "put" the voice. Then on it there are vowels.
BeyondTenor		#9	[-]
Posts: 3297 (06/24/09 11:05 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Great post Leo! Singing has three main pieces. Air Flow, Phonation, and Resonance. Poor Air Flow, or Air Production, or Breathing, or Support, or WHATEVER WORD YOU WANT TO USE, WILL toss Phonation and Resonance out of balance. Just because you "don't believe in it" or "don't suggest/teach it" doesn't mean you AREN'T DOING IT SUBCONCIOUSLY. To me, GREAT Air Flow HAS to be subconcious or it's not good and "natural." Speaking of "natural," what IS "natural"? Oh, quite simply it's just what you are accustomed to. To a REALLY "good" singer, it's "natural" to sing correctly. To someone who is just starting as is a "horrid singer," however, "natural" IS what they are doing, poor functionality and performance on a vocal level. What exactly IS "vocal level"? It's how the instrument is functioning. "Vocal Level"is misleading, because the ENTIRE body is actually your instrument. Most people ignore that and run into "Vocal Folds/Cords" are the key. Then they leave off everything that matters, except the Phonation. No air, no phonation, too much air, no phonation. It will cause constriction if the Air Flow isn't balanced. Now, balanced Air Flow HAS to be met with a BALANCED Phonation pattern, meaning the larynx and everything connected to it (again, leads to practically the whole body) must be used efficiently. Take "efficiently" how you will, as you're going to be doing that anyway. That just creates the frequency. The Resonance, quite frankly, SHAPES the sound into what comes out. If that's a very shrill, "ugly" sound colour, that's how your Resonance has shaped your sound. If it's an overly dull sound, again, it's how you shaped the sound with your Resonance. Resonance doesn't have to make a huge Opera sound. Actually, you'd be quite surprised how much Opera has in common with Rock, but I won't go into that. So, yes, Breathing IS important, but on it's own, it does nothing. If you want to "train" it, I have a suggestion. Get a balloon that is approximately nine inches (9in, or 23cm) in diameter when inflated. The goal here is to SLOWLY blow the balloon up in as few breathes as possible. Don't tie it, don't let it go. Next, do this part over a period of time to avoid lightheadedness. Slowly INHALE the air out of the balloon so it is completely deflated again. AGAIN, inflate the balloon by exhaling into it, and DEflate the balloon by INHALING it's contents. Do so slowly, and don't inhale it in one breath to avoid lightheadedness/nauseousness. As a side note, if a singer is missing good breathing, but has a great control over phonation and resonance, they can "cover up" their shortcomings, if they know how to use their available sounds properly and effectively. It's all in how you know to use your voice, and song choice. - Josh Reach Beyond Everything... and you might find more than you were looking for in the first place. Domine Deus Omnipotens in cuius manu omnis victoria constistit. "The only easy day was yesterday." - Navy Seals
musiciano		#10	[-]
Posts: 1034 (06/25/09 12:31 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	The whole point of most of what I ever say is to deconstruct the deeply entrenched false notions that have become so popular over the years. These false notions seem to happen when we lose perspective of reality. It seems to happen with everything, with politics, religion, singing, whatever. If you ask Michelangelo how to hold the paint brush he will give you one answer, if you ask Da Vinci, he will give you another one. This tells us something. There is no one right way to do anything, it is unique to the individual based on his personal findings. I have an issue with people trying to impose THEIR way onto others. Anybody can go ahead and say that that's what I am doing, and fine, I'll take that. But the intention and focus in my teachings is to deconstruct any such notion of the "way it is." This stuff getting so elaborate and wordy, I think just confuses the poor souls who are trying to simplify the whole thing. In an attempt to do so they try and cheat by looking at the notes that another singer discovered by himself. This applies to all teachers. What Sadolin discovered for herself MAY help others but not when it's an imposition that is being placed as an overlay. Natural to me means simple. But that's my freaking definition and I'm entitled to have my views just as all of you are. I am not here for any specific reason other than for love. That's all.
sofus987		#11	[-]
Posts: 6 (06/25/09 5:28 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	musicano, I respect you to I know that you like to talk about all the philosophical stuff and mind-settings which is related to singing and that's great! It sure is a part of the whole proccess. But in 90% of the cases it really doesn't help people to learn how to play their instrument. The definition about support that I posted is what physically happens weither it's subconcious or not as Beyond mentioned - it's a fact and VERY concrete physical movements. The goal is to make singing technique concrete just like learning the technique to play a trumpet etc. You don't go around telling people who want to learn how to play the piano that they just have to do what's "natural" and let the intelligent body/mind do what it's born to do or other psycological/spiritual mumbo jumbo. In my opinion you are actually not making singing "easier" by all these subjective views. The voice is a physical instrument and therfore the approach on how to learn how to play it must first be objective and concrete and then you can dive into the aesthetical and subjective stuff. Last Edited By: sofus987 06/25/09 5:36 AM. Edited 4 times.
musiciano		#12	[-]
Posts: 1034 (06/25/09 8:53 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	To each their own. Pick what resonates for you, pick what you like. I once was a CVT student, I was was an SS student, I was once an SLS student, I once was a Deva Method Student, I once was a classical singing student, I once was a you name it. If you look at my bookshelf to my right filled with "practical, concrete" advice you wouldn't believe it. I had to dump all of it to be able to sing. I understand what you are saying and still disagree. Playing the voice cannot be compared to playing any other instrument in the way you are trying to do so. If what I say doesn't help, don't listen to it. You'll come back to it inevitably at some point in the journey. It requires a certain maturity and maybe going through all of the methods and all the techniques and instruction is a huge part of getting there. Just use what works for you, that's all. Hopefully we don't go to the grave holding on to other peoples ways. It would be sad to see someone go without discovering their way. And I'm not talking about a fixed thing, like CVT, SLS, SS and all those things are. I am talking about something that can't be conceptualized, something that can't be boxed up. It's just presumptuous to think you can box it up. It may be a good starting point but the evolution out of all boxes is what I think this birth is all about. It's our birthright to find out for ourselves! Last Edited By: musiciano 06/25/09 9:00 AM. Edited 1 times.
sofus987		#13	[-]
Posts: 6 (06/25/09 9:24 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	I agree that we should use the things that helps us reach our goals and disgard the rest. If something helps then stick to it! I myself have tried almost every aproaches out there...and I'm also a fan of experimenting. I just don't see how your subjective aproach can help a singer who for instance want's to sing a high powerfull C with distortion? How would you go about that with subjective metaphors and what have you? And by the way how would you then describe support if what I posted was nonsense to you?
musiciano		#14	[-]
Posts: 1034 (06/25/09 10:08 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	First of all to me there is no such thing as a high C. There is absolutely no such thing. The notion of a high C is subjective. To me there is no such thing as a "high note." I understand what people mean when they say that, but I know it's a myth. There is no reason why one note is any more special or different than another. There is also to me, no such thing as "support," I know what they mean but there is no such thing as it. I don't really think it is necessary to have any of these concepts and ideas in the head to sing well. In fact, the more your system is purged of such notions, the better it sings itself. "High note" is a myth my friend. "High C" is a delusion, an auditive illusion of the senses. I don't think any one note is more special or different than another. I understand that there are differences, but at the same time I include the knowing that there are not any differences. This isn't rational, logical thinking, that is why it seems "subjective." It's not subjective at all, it's closer to the actual truth of the matter. If you ask me the whole chase after the "high C" and the whole emphasis and basing things off of that to me is a very immature thing. Singing a "high C" doesn't necessarily mean anything. There are many examples I can think of... I know of many people who can sing a glorious high C and can't sing for their lives. It's a very immature thing the whole thing. Just like trying to sound like someone else and all that stuff. That's what I mean by it takes a certain maturity, you have to wake up out of all you've thought and believed before. You have to totally step out of the known. I am not concerned too much about "how to" I am more inclined to address "how NOT to" Last Edited By: musiciano 06/25/09 10:24 AM. Edited 2 times.
BeyondTenor		#15	[-]
Posts: 3297 (06/26/09 8:31 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Music, I'm not arguing. The mentality behind singing is very important. We must break free and be our own voice. However, there are physical realities as well. Mentality is half the game. People do need to realize that how high the pitch is, is not important. However, you very well know "High C" is for notation and reference of pitch, not because it's special. Sometimes, things have meanings that matter. It's not something to believe in. It's there whether you do or not. - Josh Reach Beyond Everything... and you might find more than you were looking for in the first place. Domine Deus Omnipotens in cuius manu omnis victoria constistit. "The only easy day was yesterday." - Navy Seals
musiciano		#16	[-]
Posts: 1034 (06/26/09 12:20 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Josh, my philosophy or mentality or whatever you want to call it does not exclude anything. All it does is take the whole into account. It can seem paradoxical like any deeper truth. We are the same AND we are different. There is day time and night time AND there is a 24-day, there is no such thing as specific notes AND there is such a thing as specific notes. I like all of you am very well aware, as I am sure you are aware of all the relatives views and realities of singing. I know about notation, pitch, tone, volume, the whole thing. I already know and am aware of all of what you guys talk about, my aim is to add a bigger, more inclusive perspective, and ADDITIONAL view. I am not really discarding the reality of any of anybody's views. The question is: is it the whole picture? So all I am is a SUPPLEMENT to what everybody already knows. Usually this holistic view tends to sweep away and heal the black or white thinking or fragmented thinking. I am speaking of the FOUNDATION. And my advice, like your advice and everyone elses is take it or leave it. I am not trying to shove it down anybody's throat (although it may SEEM like I am) and I am not selling it as the ONLY reality either. Usually that's what other people ADD to my stuff and then they start to respond to what their imagination is telling them that this is. The way I see it is everything I say is hogwash, garbage, crap. But this garbage COULD for SOME be of SOME use. If not, feel free to discard it. I personally don't believe in any of the stuff I say. This stuff can't REALLY be put into words, you know? I don't even think what I write is helpful, the question is do YOU? If not, great! If you do, great! Either way it's all good. I'm free here, I could care less about my ego. Last Edited By: musiciano 06/26/09 12:27 PM. Edited 1 times.

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