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Jul 21 07 1:02 PM

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Hey guys, I just stumbled upon this board and thought it would be nice to maybe get some things cleared up that I've had some concerns with. To start things off, I've never studied vocal techniques, so any talent I have singing-wise is somewhat raw. However, I've been playing the saxophone for about 8 years now, so I still know a thing or two about music and music production.

My basic concern is regarding increasing my range. Right now I sit comfortably as a bass hitting around a D2 (sometimes down to C2 and B1 once or twice) up to G3 in chest. I'm not entirely certain, but I think I've stumbled upon a mix voice which brings me up to E4 (G4 with some effort). What I want to know is how to increase this mix voice to get me up to the fabled C5. I ask this primarily because my friends and I are putting a band together, mostly instrumental, but I've been selected to sing our only song with vocals, which has a kind of power metal tonality, going up to a C5 once. I don't want to kill my voice practicing this, which I feaer I may end up doing. Do you guys know any exercises I can do to bring my range up some more? Right now, about all I do is sing along to various showtunes while I'm driving to and from school. Also of concern is my tone quality. I'm not terribile, but I do like to consider myself inoffensive, which is something I would like to work on.

Once the Fall semester starts up, I'm going to be taking a course in Vocal Techniques for non-voice majors, so it would be nice to go into the class with some prior knowledge.

Thanks a lot guys!
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#1 [url]

Jul 21 07 1:23 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Yo Brainstem, welcome to the Jesse Nemitz boards. The good news is that you can hit a C5. I am a baritone and I can go to an E5. My brother is a Baritone and he can hit an A5 in mix. So A bass can easily hit a C5. (I am just saying to prove that this particular fable has a happy and very true ending.)

The bad news is, that you may not be able to hit the C5 tomorrow or next month, but probably in six months with steady training you should be able to get the fabled men's high C.

Step 1: Get a singing program. I would suggest Brett Manning's Singing success: www.singingsuccess.com or you can pursue Singer's Advantage by Sett Riggs www.singersadvantage.com who also does Singing For The Stars also by Seth Riggs www.singing.com/vocaltraining.htm

There are a number of excellent products by Mark Baxter you can get from www.getsigned.com I personally use his warmup which is excellent. He wrote several books which will improve your knowlege.

Step 2: Be dedicated and be willing to change your perspective on singing if you have to. Most of us came in here with pre-concieved ideas that were totally false. (I thought that head voice and chest voice were made by two different cords)

Step 3: Option A; Record yourself and post recordings as you go so that people on this site can help you with feedback, and other's can learn with you. Option B; find a good SLS certified teacher.

Good luck!

-David
______________________________________________________
You can't make good music on a stolen guitar.

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#2 [url]

Jul 21 07 1:32 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Ah, thanks for such a quick response. I've been thinking the same thing about actually being able to hit the high notes. If they can be produced, as bad as they may sound at the moment, the fact that they can be hit means that they can be improved (you should have heard me try anything above C4 about a year ago). And the time certainly isn't something I'm unwilling to expend. Going to school for Music Education, I know for certain that these things take dedication, but I think being told that I'm not a great singer for so long (but as my aunt says, nobody wants to hear a man sing bass... unless you're Johnny Cash, I guess) that I have the drive to succeed.

What kind of recordings would be good to put up on the site? I try to record myself singing whenever I'm home alone just to work up my ear training and have that (along with the increase in breath control from singing) to translate to my saxophone playing.

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#3 [url]

Jul 21 07 1:42 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Record anything, mainly something you're having trouble with. We can use anything, and go from there.

Bass singers are really great to listen to personally. I find that a bass who sings at or about C4 is just BAM to hear. It's just awesome for me.

I would like to extend MY modification to David's list. #1: You don't NEED a program at all. They are very helpful, and I loved using SS to gain my footstool. Don't think it's a requirement. You should find something that can give you "exercises" and some kind of guidance. A program is good, but a teacher is better. To modify #3, you don't NEED to look for a good SLS teacher. What you NEED is a GOOD TEACHER. I know, this is an SLS board, and I'm one of the few who don't use it. BUT, a good teacher is just that. No matter the technique they use, a good teacher will be able to get the idea across to you, so that you can understand and use it. In the end, all technique is to teach you how to balance and coordinate. So the tech doesn't matter.

-Joshie

____________


The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance.

Angels are among us; when you find them, cherish their presence everyday.

Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ~ anonymous

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#4 [url]

Jul 21 07 1:46 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Beyond is right...You don't need any of those things, but most people don't know where to start. There is enough info in these pages to go off of if you are really enterprising. I personally don't use Singing Success, but I did go through and get my information from it.

You sound like you are able to be an objective teacher to yourself so you can escape the necessity of having a program or teacher, but it is nice to know where to start.
-David

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#5 [url]

Jul 21 07 1:51 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

I had an idea.

Do you sing any songs that require you to at least hit Eb4? If you do, post a clip of that line. Do a few clips. Different ranges. Chest, falsetto, fry, anything. It'll always help. Then, what you know you have problems with, tell us. Don't use range as a problem. As you learn to open up to what your voice does, and do it effeciently, the range just comes with it.

-Joshie

____________


The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance.

Angels are among us; when you find them, cherish their presence everyday.

Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ~ anonymous

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#6 [url]

Jul 21 07 2:57 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

One step ahead of you on that! I've got a recording of Pilate's Dream (for the Bass/Baritone; A2-Bb3) and This Jesus Must Die (for Bass; D2-F3... the D2 is kind of rough due to the beating I gave myself on the drive home from school today =\) from Jesus Christ Superstar and a verse + chorus of Drunk Again (my "Tenor" from around G3-Bb4) by The Littlest Man Band. Family just came into the home, so I won't have the recordings up until I have a chance to record the part of Drunk Again, but it'll be up shortly, I promise!

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#7 [url]

Jul 21 07 3:17 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Take your time.

-Joshie

____________


The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance.

Angels are among us; when you find them, cherish their presence everyday.

Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ~ anonymous

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#8 [url]

Jul 21 07 5:22 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Ok, here are the putfile links... don't be too harsh!

First is This Jesus Must Die from Jesus Christ Superstar to show a more bassy range... media.putfile.com/Must-Die

Second is Suddenly Seymour from Little Shop of Horrors for the Baritone inside (goes up to E4)... media.putfile.com/Suddenly-24

And finally is Drunk Again by The Littlest Man Band for the Tenor many wish to have (note: in the source that I'm using, he sings the chorus very quiet so I was trying to mimic that)... media.putfile.com/Drunk-Again-81

So based on those... tips?

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#9 [url]

Jul 21 07 7:22 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Hi, Brainstem. If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? Listening to your recordings, you don't really seem like a bass to me. Maybe a heavier baritone or a bass-baritone, but not really a bass. Your voice is kind of like mine. What you are really isn't important; learning to sing in a coordinated way is. In "This Jesus Must Die", you show a pretty decent chest voice. Could use some fine tuning, but it's not too bad. In "Suddenly Seymour", you sing with less chest, so maybe that's what you perceive as singing as a "baritone". As you go higher in this clip, you pull off of the chest too much to the point where it becomes very constricted. "Drunk Again" shows a very constricted falsetto, hence the strain you mention when trying to sing higher. If I were you, I would work on freeing up my falsetto, then learning how to coordinate it with the chest as you go higher so you can keep your full sound all the way up.

_____________________________________________________
We have eyes, but cannot see; ears, but cannot hear.

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#10 [url]

Jul 21 07 7:49 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

CuanoDante, I know everyone says experiement and etc. but what is the best way to carry chest voice into the upper ranges? Does a 5 tone AH scale or a Gee Gee Gee really work? What did you do to coordinate chest voice correctly into the upper ranges? And for a high C (in your case, what % do u think is chest and what % is mix)

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#11 [url]

Jul 21 07 8:00 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

I'm 19 years at the moment, just going into my second year of college. Also, when I was saying "baritone" and "bass," I meant more the range of notes as opposed to the tonality of my voice. I don't really see tone being different based on range (unless you start getting into things like bass profundo and all those sub-types).

Also, I second confused's question. What kinds of exercises are good to do to help with everything?

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#12 [url]

Jul 21 07 8:06 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Work on small things. That's how you fine-tune it. The longer scales have their place, but settle for a two, three, or maybe five-tone scale to help you feel how to coordinate. Start at the lower range, and go from there. Make it fun, play, but work hard. Dante had me use "ah" (HAH!) and "aah" (Quack) on two and three-tone scales. If those vowels don't work well with you, choose another. See what happens.

-Joshie

____________


The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance.

Angels are among us; when you find them, cherish their presence everyday.

Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ~ anonymous

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#13 [url]

Jul 21 07 10:12 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

is getting a chesty mixed voice (or coordinated chest) by finding the right balance of just letting just the "right" amount of chest voice go as you ascend into the upper ranges? so far, i've got the impression that if you let too little go, you'll strain and if you let too much go, it will be a heady mix. so, by doing short scales of solid ahs, am I supposed to find the right balance?

btw, how solid do you want me to sing the low chest notes as I do the ah scales... I feel like if I use a little bit "let go" chest voice, I can go higher.. but.. should I produce a solid low chest and try to bring it up even though I crack? if I crack because the chest voice note is too "solid," should I just keep trying anyway step by step?

does "the edgy sound" help coordinate chest voice into the upper ranges as well?

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#14 [url]

Jul 22 07 8:27 AM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Quote:
CuanoDante, I know everyone says experiement and etc. but what is the best way to carry chest voice into the upper ranges? Does a 5 tone AH scale or a Gee Gee Gee really work? What did you do to coordinate chest voice correctly into the upper ranges? And for a high C (in your case, what % do u think is chest and what % is mix)

In all honestly, I found out how to do this by experimentation. However, I also had very specific sounds in mind that I was going for -- not just any old sounds, but the correct sounds. I worked on my range one note at a time. Most of the time, I never really used scales. I had to learn how to be loud, but loud and resonant (as opposed to "loud" and blasty or "loud" and constricted). The biggest thing was just coordinating everything in the vocal appartus correctly. This included things such as making sure the back of the tongue is in the right position, opening the mouth enough, coordinating the registers, using support correctly, giving enough energy, etc. Also, the way I do things, you don't let go of chest AT ALL when going up if you want a full voice sound. You keep the same amount of chest while gradually bringing in more and more of the falsetto. If you begin to let go of chest, you'll go to more of a mix sound (which is just less chest than full voice, IMO).
_____________________________________________________
We have eyes, but cannot see; ears, but cannot hear.

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#15 [url]

Jul 22 07 11:09 AM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

wait.. I'm confused... you don't let go of chest at all as you go up? but I thought you didn't have the same amount of chest at C5 as you did at C4... I'm sorry... I'm kind of confused by this... if you don't let go of any chest, wouldn't that be belting? could it be that you're just belting in a coordinated fashion?

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#16 [url]

Jul 22 07 11:43 AM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

If you want a full-out sound, you hold on to every bit of the chest you have, and gradually bring just enough falsetto into it to make the next note. You want the folds to stay thick like in chest, but stretch like in falsetto. If you let go of the chest, then the folds will thin more towards falsetto. It's not belting, though I talked to a teacher at the university near here that calls high-chest (what is being referred to as not letting go of any chest) coordinated belting. Belting, IMO is dangerous and harmful. If it's coordinated, you're not really belting.

As for the amount of chest in C4 and C5, I can do both with just as much chest. There is more falsetto in the C5 than the C4, but I can do it. Both are full-out. If I don't use as much chest as possible, then I'm in a mix, and the C5 won't have as much chest as the C4.

-Joshie

____________


The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance.

Angels are among us; when you find them, cherish their presence everyday.

Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ~ anonymous

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#17 [url]

Jul 24 07 5:06 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

While I agree with Josh and Dante, I can't imagine that someone would correctly "hold on to every bit of the chest you have, and gradually bring just enough falsetto into it to make the next note" without really knowing EXACTLY what "chest" and "falsetto" are being used to describe in this context, and how to utilize them. It's easy to do this kind of thing in a way far different than Josh or Dante has in mind due to the fact that many people's conceptions of these terms are quite different than the way Dante/Josh think about them.
It's easy to say "hold on to chest, but add falsetto," but someone who doesn't know precisely what that means and how to achieve it that might have a lot of trouble doing it. It's like saying "Multiply 5 by 3" to someone who has only a vague idea what the values of 5 or 3 are.

That said, I agree 500% with Dante about experimentation. That's really the only way to figure out your voice. You can't experiment incorrectly...that's why it's experimentation.

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#18 [url]

Jul 24 07 5:45 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Ah, I should have mentioned that. RX88 brings up a good point. The only way to truely understand what someone means is to do it in your own voice, and have them say "That's it."

-Joshie

____________


The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance.

Angels are among us; when you find them, cherish their presence everyday.

Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ~ anonymous

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#19 [url]

Jul 24 07 9:29 PM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

I agree with RX that a lot of this is easier said than done and can be taken the wrong way, so forgive me if I didn't put up that disclaimer first.

Quote:
That said, I agree 500% with Dante about experimentation. That's really the only way to figure out your voice. You can't experiment incorrectly...that's why it's experimentation.

This is very true. EVERY sound you make when experimenting, be it correct or not, is an important sound. Discovering all of these different sounds will show you what your voice can do. You'll find that your voice won't like certain sounds, so you stay away from them. But, then, other sounds you may seem ok with. The only way you will truly know your voice is through this process of self-discovery. No one can teach you all the fine details of your voice. For instance, drinking milk has no effect on my voice whatsoever. Had I listened to all the vocal advice out there to not drink milk, I would have never discovered this. Just try everything. Anything and everything until you learn exactly how your instrument responds to it all.
_____________________________________________________
We have eyes, but cannot see; ears, but cannot hear.

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#20 [url]

Jul 25 07 1:02 AM

Re: A Bass Needing Some Range Advice

Hm, so I've been playing around with fry lately on the song that I need to sing for my little band thing (it's the Pokmon TV Show theme, by the way. We're covering video game songs, mostly as ska, but this one is going to be power metal as I said earlier) and I'm not totally sure if I'm just killing my voice or not. I've been trying to bring falsetto into my chest as well, with a few albums that just happened to be voiced very well for where my chest starts to weaken (ever heard of Fellowship! the Musical? Good fun there. Muppets stuff is great, too. Behold... the man who knows nothing about classical vocal literature!).

But yeah, I'll try to record parts of the song and maybe something from Fellowship! or Muppets that is me trying to keep the chest in higher ranges on here. I'm just not sure if I'm killing myself with some of the things I'm doing.

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