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 musiciano |
Singing without technique |
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Posts: 1034 (06/24/09 9:58 PM) |
I want to share this song with you guys I just recorded. The last thing on my mind is "technique" when I sing this. I'm not even really thinking
about my crappy mic or anything else.
Just on what the song means to me. Enjoy. One Song Glory - http://www.box.net/shared/aucui66bje |
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unspoken whisper |
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Posts: 215 (06/25/09 12:53 AM) |
Wonderful. Thanks for sharing that clip with us along with your vulnerability.
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leonetha |
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Posts: 1674 (06/26/09 6:46 AM) |
I dont know if i like all the songs you sing or is it the way you perform them - but i LOVE the verses - its the first time i hear you sing with a playback.
Really cool.
I hope one day ot be able to sing like this. To play however i want with whatever. I still think that before being able to sing without technique - and to demonstrate such abilities, you DO need to learn technique... |
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/26/09 7:58 AM) |
You might go that way of learning technique, but you will inextricably have to drop it. So I say, why pick it up in the first place? I mean, I understand...
fear and distrust can be curbed with technique and if that's what it takes to get you to outgrow technique, go for it.
My personal feeling, belief and experience is that it is not necessary. But that's what I think AFTER having gone through a lot of technique training and learning, so what I say might just be because of I've been there and done that. Who knows? Honestly I think we are being severely deceived by people with their own agendas. I don't believe there is any reason to listen to anyone outside of me unless they are free of agendas. Otherwise it becomes toxic and the point is lost. This is about YOU and should be about YOU all the time. Because YOU are the "authority" of yourself. There is no such thing as authority, there is no head above your own. No head below either, but no head above. Once you realize this... oh man... think of what is possible! |
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leonetha |
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Posts: 1674 (06/26/09 9:20 AM) |
yes. I understand what you say - self reliance. I think its important too.
Ironically no matter what good stuff the ohter person teaches WE need to understand not them - so in a way we are left on our own. "so what I say might just be because of I've been there and done that. " - i told you that too, a few months ago. I understand you - but this freedom of technique - isnt it becoming YOUR agenda? maybe not - whatever you mean by that. I think that professional advice has its place just as your inner teacher. See - in a way - the technique becomes your second nature and THEN it drops by itself. You dont have to think about it you do it. Thats why i agree that its important, like yousay, to listn to the body, and for teh technique to be as natural as possible. |
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/26/09 12:23 PM) |
I think you are talking (maybe without being aware of it) of technique becoming habitual and becoming ingrained in muscle memory so it feels
"natural." I call this habit, not freedom.
Yes it's easy to make freedom an agenda, you are right, thanks for pointing that out. You never fail to make me more aware of myself, thank you for that. Freedom is free of agendas, that's why it's free. It takes a big leap of what they call trust to let go into what I am saying. In my opinion "professional" advice is not REALLY necessary. It COULD be useful. Many times it is NOT. It all depends on the teacher. |
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leonetha |
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Posts: 1674 (06/26/09 1:23 PM) |
musiciano wrote:Yes it ddepends on the teacher - you had crappy teachers too right? its hard to find a good one. Are you saying that as begining singer you need NO proffessional advice whatsoever? |
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/26/09 1:41 PM) |
Honestly, no I don't think so. I'm not saying they should not use it or seek out for it, I'm just saying they don't NEED it. Most times it just
confuses the singer. Again, unless we are talking about an open, good teacher.
All I am saying is that anything that tries to be imposed from the outside is doomed to fail. It may work for a while, but eventually it won't. I'm not a fan of the "stick to it" either. To me that sounds like creating dependency on something. Use it, get it, leave it. Don't "stick to" anything. This is from the inside out more than the outside in. The outside has its place though, I just think the emphasis needs to be looked at. I think education is backwards in general, at least in the Western World and in my experience! The evidence is the lack of results, the obvious bad habits and the constant frustration, seek and search that we all have. We never feel like we are good enough and are constantly relying on an outside source. As I have said before I think a good teacher is invaluable, but only one that knows this stuff I'm talking about, that ultimately your teacher is really YOURSELF and not me. That all I am here to do is to guide to yourself so you can get a sense of foundation from which to work on. A teacher like this is a precious jewel -- that also needs to be let go of once the time is right. |
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JollyJake |
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Posts: 2328 (06/26/09 7:29 PM) Administrator |
Good singing, man! I think that you are using the term "technique" as something different from what a lot of usually think of it as: Could you define
your definition of technique here?
Technique... The technique of a golf swing... It can be broken down in so many areas, but do the pros really think of every little item as they swing their club? I doubt it. They have trained to a level of "perfection" so that it is almost automatic. They had to do some preparation to get there though; some had to study other golfer's swings, and make corrections to their's when they found that they had a flaw in their technique, while other's may have been mentored and taught. After a while though, it isn't difficult because they have done it so many times, that they don't have to think about following through on the swing, or anything else: They just do it because they are a good golfer, and it is second nature to them. I know from my experience that I had to train my tail off to get to where I am now; my voice just couldn't do what it can do now. But now that I have trained a lot and my voice is strong, I'm able to do all of these things I never could do before! It's automatic, it's almost easy! BUT, I had to train to get to that point. I don't think about technique anymore, honestly: I just sing. For some beginners, however, they think of every little detail: I gotta make sure I'm vocalizing with a low larynx, I need to breathe correctly, I need stop tensing my neck, etc, etc. A lot of the times, their voice is to blame; it won't do what they so desperately want it to do, because it isn't in the shape to do it. Think about when you first began training: You had a few good days, but then you had really bad days where you couldn't sing anything: "Why does voice keep going into falsetto!" "Why do I keep going off pitch!" "Why do I sound like I do!" Contrast that to now when you can sing almost anything you want, and it isn't that difficult: My point is, don't forget how it is to be a beginner - they don't have your conditioned voice. You've already done the training and conditioning, and telling them that it is a mental thing, while that might be true for some things, is only part of the battle: Their are still physical limitations that can only be broken through by training. Jake P.S. Sorry if my writing was sloppy - long day, I'm not at my best right now.
"Work very, very hard - be grounded, be passionate about what you do and find the thing within yourself to make you want to be you. Go beyond me, be yourself, say what you want to say." - Josh Groban
"The better you are at vocalizing, the better you will be at singing." - Musiciano
Last Edited By: JollyJake
06/26/09 7:41 PM.
Edited 3 times.
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/26/09 7:45 PM) |
I don't disagree with a single thing you are saying but I would definitely like to add something.
I think that 90% or more of the thinking involved in a beginners head is unnecessary. All I am trying to do is save them some time. The stuff I say hopefully orients your system into a direction of simplicity and ease. I too remember when I was a beginner and how I used to torture myself. I see this on the forum all the time, singers torturing themselves. I am trying to COUNTER the notion of having to micromanage and over emphasize technique. So don't take what I say too literally. I'm just trying to loosen the grip a bit, that's all. And if you ask me, a lot more of this is needed out there, a lot of counter-talk on the hyper-emphasis on "technique." All I want to do is save some singers time -- whether that happens or not, I guess is up to the singer, not me! |
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JollyJake |
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Posts: 2328 (06/26/09 7:47 PM) Administrator |
Ok, that is what I thought you wanted to say, just wasn't sure: In that case, I agree!!
Jake
"Work very, very hard - be grounded, be passionate about what you do and find the thing within yourself to make you want to be you. Go beyond me, be yourself, say what you want to say." - Josh Groban
"The better you are at vocalizing, the better you will be at singing." - Musiciano
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/26/09 7:57 PM) |
It's funny, I'm can assume you guys have noticed, but I think it's funny how I do EVERYTHING I CAN to prove my points and be right. It cracks me
up!
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JollyJake |
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Posts: 2328 (06/26/09 8:11 PM) Administrator |
Haha, doesn't everybody?
Jake
"Work very, very hard - be grounded, be passionate about what you do and find the thing within yourself to make you want to be you. Go beyond me, be yourself, say what you want to say." - Josh Groban
"The better you are at vocalizing, the better you will be at singing." - Musiciano
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/26/09 8:19 PM) |
I wouldn't bet that everybody is as pushy as me. But yes, ultimately Jake, every human likes to be heard. Agreement or disagreement is secondary if you
look at it from a deeper stand point. We just like to be heard. It feels nice.
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JollyJake |
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Posts: 2328 (06/26/09 8:27 PM) Administrator |
True that!
Jake
"Work very, very hard - be grounded, be passionate about what you do and find the thing within yourself to make you want to be you. Go beyond me, be yourself, say what you want to say." - Josh Groban
"The better you are at vocalizing, the better you will be at singing." - Musiciano
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/26/09 8:43 PM) |
So I would suggest many singers are using this to be heard rather than to truly improve their singing. They use this a therapy. That's fine and well --
I'm just saying this so we become more conscious of what we truly want.
It's not so much that we want to sound good and be good, it's that we want to be heard and accepted. It's good to be aware of this because it can become an trap very easily. |
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leonetha |
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Posts: 1674 (06/27/09 8:39 AM) |
So - see? this is why we post unnesessary questions.....lol
p.s - Gabriel - rememebr i emailed you something titled "That`s it?" EXACTLY that point
Last Edited By: leonetha
06/27/09 8:42 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/27/09 9:20 AM) |
Leonetha, you've ALWAYS known, and I've always known you know. And I have been telling you nothing but this for years. You don't have to keep
telling me: "I said exactly that before." I've ALWAYS known you know. I know you know. I know.
If you want to keep reminding me all the times you said something that confirmed you knew, go ahead. All I am saying is that it is optional, you don't have to keep asserting yourself constantly. I KNOW YOU KNOW!!! |
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leonetha |
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Posts: 1674 (06/27/09 9:34 AM) |
its o.k i didnt mean to remind anything
just because then our conversation went to another direction and and now i see you talk about it I wasnt trying to prove you that i "know"...there is nothing to know here |
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musiciano |
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Posts: 1034 (06/27/09 9:40 AM) |
Okay, whatever, sweetheart.
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natez0r |
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Posts: 87 (06/27/09 7:52 PM) |
I think, Gabriel, that you are asking too much of people that are not to the point in their singing that you are when you invite us to sing without technique.
At some point in the past, someone on here posted an interesting thought about the progression of skill:
unconscious unskilled conscious unskilled conscious skilled unconscious skilled It seems to me that you are describing the point at which you reach the level of unconscious skilled, which of course is the most desirable, but at least in my experience, I never learn anything and instantly get to unconscious skill. I think each of us goes through each of these stages, many of us are somewhere in the middle. |
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