What is a mix anyways?

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tkogiah	What is a mix anyways?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 52 (09/09/08 9:33 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hey guys I gotsa question (excuse my bad grammar). We talk about a mix (or at least I do) in a way that makes me think not a many people do it. From what I understand, a mix is just what the name implies; A mix of two muscles (or groups of muscles) that produce a connected sound. Kind of like passing water between two connected bottles. you start in chest and as you ascend up you add more head resonance, AND less chest resonance. My question about the mix is a simple one. As I sing higher into the mix (about and above G4) why do I feel like I am pushing more and more on each note? And why do all the recordings that people post sound like they are pushing more and more with each note? I am confused because with all the information I have gathered, and with the understanding I have, I can teach my friends and family who want to sing better, to sing better. But I feel like I hit about F4 and I start to push and about G4 I feel like there's too much pressure, but at the same time I also feel like its ten times easier than I sang a year ago or even eight or nine months ago. I am confused. Have any of you ever been in that place? I have a specific question for jake. I noticed you push the lowered larynx a lot. When you were first learning, did you sing normal and full out with the energy, while trying to maintain a lower larynx? Or, did you do something else?
JollyJake		#1	[-]
Posts: 2329 (09/09/08 2:05 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Mix is a mix of two different coordination's. An example would be the colors in a gradient between white and black. It has little to do with resonance. "Adding chest" and "adding head" are labels that people have used. Speaking of a trained voice: the cords coordinate, and the amount of air he or she use determines how "big" the sound will be. That is making it simple, but that is basically how things happen. My question about the mix is a simple one. As I sing higher into the mix (about and above G4) why do I feel like I am pushing more and more on each note? And why do all the recordings that people post sound like they are pushing more and more with each note? The reason is there is an imbalance somewhere. It could be a lot of things. I would imagine that your larynx is not stable, but I'd have to listen to be sure. When you say "all," who are you referring to? Not everyone here is a beginner. I used to struggle to hit an Ab4. Not much anymore. It has become a whole lot easier because I've been training. You - and I - are a work in progress. Don't be discouraged because you are having trouble with certain notes. Find out why. Maybe your larynx is rising. If that is the case, lower it while you train. Take a lesson with Jesse or one of the guys here - they can help you. When I first started out I did not sing with any energy. That was a big issue. My larynx was pretty stable below high C. To be able to keep chest engaged, YOUR LARYNX NEEDS TO BE STABLE! If it is rising as you try to go higher keeping chest engaged, you will end up straining. A stable larynx is one of the most important things in singing. It will affect your sound (That is the strained sound most of the time), and you will not be able to sing free of constriction. Here is one of my recent posts about the low larynx: How often do you vocalize? Do you have Singing Success? You need to be able to be independent of the outer muscles of the larynx to be able to sing that stuff correctly and sounding good. The dopey sound is specifically used to disengage the outer muscles so that you can develop the inner muscles; if the outer muscles are engaging and trying to "help" the inner muscles, then what do you think is getting stronger? The outer muscles are. That doesn't do you any good, and worse, your inner muscles become weaker because you are depending on the outer muscles for help. You need to be able to sing independently of the outer muscles, and that is why you use the dopey sound - while vocalizing. Using the dopey sound while you sing won't really do you any good in the long run, it is just a shortcut, not without consequences. You want to use the dopey sound while you vocalize so that the inner muscles become strong enough to work independently of the outer, THEN you can sing this stuff freely. I hope that helps! Jake "Work very, very hard - be grounded, be passionate about what you do and find the thing within yourself to make you want to be you. Go beyond me, be yourself, say what you want to say." - Josh Groban "The better you are at vocalizing, the better you will be at singing." - Musiciano
s4m222		#2	[-]
Posts: 118 (09/09/08 4:36 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	i was talking to beyond about a similar question. Cause I atm the fuller and higher up the scale i attempt to sing i need to push harder. Cause pushing is something i can do. But when i watch singers with good tech (at least to my limited knowledge) Even when NAILING that climactic high note of the song there really isnt a "push" they take a good breath and it looks like they are singing any other note but the energy and power of the note is way higher than the rest of the song. So its elusive this support thing imo Im still trying to grasp the concept physically. But basically beyond broke it down like this to me in a conversation. singing in your most natural range doesnt require much support. But the farther down and the farther up you go you need more support. And also the fuller you want to sound the more support. so while he is just talking there wouldnt be much support. But i asked him what about when you in whistle register and i was told that requires alot of support. Also the chestier he makes his mix or the louder he wants to be the more support he needs. But he makes it clear i should never be PUSHING hard or getting really tense to HIT those note. But its about finding the balance in support vs the note you want to hit. this is something i struggle with very much as i am very unclear on how much air flow i really should be using, and how much air pressure and stuff but I will admit i am making a bit of progress as time goes on. Which is good haha *this is to the best of my memories recollection
tkogiah		#3	[-]
Posts: 52 (09/09/08 5:57 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	when I say all I am talking about all. To me EVERYONE I hear sing high in a strong mix SOUNDS like they are straining. I can't tell unless I see them for myself to see if they are raising the larynx, tightening certain muscles etc. But it still sounds like there's a push to sing higher. I know why and when I play with my mix and add resonance and more energy I sound loud and strained but I am not. I am playing with two different coordinations right now and I am mad because I don't have a mic to record them for you guys to critique them but I want to know which one is right. yes s4m222 it seems that we are in a very similar predicament as far as knowledge and discernment is concerned. Jake, you never answered my specific question for you (although looking back and reading what I asked...it's probably my fault, the wording is garbage). My question was if when you were first learning to sing, did you sing full out in a heavy mix while trying to sustain a low/stable larynx. I mean, did you sing every song all dopey until it just clicked? The reason I put this post up is because of this new coordination I found. This coordination makes singing up to a like G5 friggin WAAAAY easy completely connected. But, it's kinda wobbly, like shaky. I don't know is that how yalls heavy mixes sounded in the beginning?
s4m222		#4	[-]
Posts: 118 (09/10/08 12:48 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	i would think peoples heavy mixes sounded light at the beginning... hehe and they built on that light and right to get it heavier but thats a guess. MAybe its a *click process.
unspoken whisper		#5	[-]
Posts: 215 (09/10/08 2:30 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hi, Marcus! I had to reread this topic a couple of times to get the gist of what you're saying. I think what's confusing is your use of the terms of "pushing" and "straining," all of which imply over-exertion and incorrect singing. I think the question you're really trying to get at is "does singing higher in a mix require more effort as I ascend"? The question is yes and no. If you're trying to stay in the same coordination--that is, stay in a coordination/mix that is just as heavy--then yes, you will need more support as you ascend. If you're singing extremely heavy, as Dante describes here, you do have to "dig into the chest (and hold onto it)" a lot more as you go up in his words. However, in a SS-style mix, you usually get ever so much lighter as you ascend, so in that case, you tend to keep the pressure around the same for close notes, and you don't need to apply as much effort relatively. There is less of a volume increase that way as well. Saying that singing is effortless is a little misleading. There is no strain on your vocal cords, and your throat is free (not tense!) when you're singing correctly. It honestly feels great in your throat and mouth, but the support mechanism does require physical stamina when you're working with very high pressures. However, you shouldn't feel as though you're pushing on the note from your throat; that is incorrect. Your larynx would probably be high in that case, and you might be gripping. It wouldn't be released. In your case, when you're pushing on the G4, it may or may not be correct. Feeling an increase in support if you're trying to sound just as heavy higher is normal; however, if you're spreading and constricting, you'd be overexerting yourself, which is incorrect. Also, a note to anyone reading, proper cord closure is extremely important because blasting.is VERY bad for your voice and incorrect. To your second post, over time, you'll be able to tell the difference between what's "straining" (incorrect) and what's not just by listening to the tonal quality of the singer as he or she hits a note. Trust me, there is a HUGE difference between the two. It may require some conscious effort, but in a practical sense, when you're doing it right, it doesn't hurt for one. tkogiah wrote: I am playing with two different coordinations right now and I am mad because I don't have a mic to record them for you guys to critique them but I want to know which one is right. [...] The reason I put this post up is because of this new coordination I found. This coordination makes singing up to a like G5 friggin WAAAAY easy completely connected. But, it's kinda wobbly, like shaky. I don't know is that how yalls heavy mixes sounded in the beginning? Honestly, I can't really answer that "which is right" question without hearing a sound clip, but it's possible that both could be correct. Or both could be incorrect for that matter. The point is that it's not necessarily either/or. You can play with many different proportions of TA versus CT and still be released, and there are different proportions that will sound "heavy." Speaking for myself, I sing in a whole bunch of different heavy mixes on purpose to play with the aesthetic. I have experiences myself when I slip into a really good heavy mix, and it feels as though I'm just talking, and it's VERY easy. I don't even notice the support much. When that happens, I think it has to do with the fact that I'm finally relaxed enough to not be activating the counterproductive muscles. Also, with support, you become more accustomed to the pressures over time, and the better singer you become, the more natural the support comes and the less you have to think about actually exerting effort. (Although you still are applying the effort; you just might not be thinking about it or noticing as much!) Some mixes are going to "feel" as though they require more effort than others; it depends on how loud, how heavy, and how high you're singing. These mixes can all potentially be correct. However, I don't think a good mix should be "wobbly" or "shaky." That part waves some red flags in my mind. A last note, the post I linked to above has a good technical rundown about the elements needed to sing higher in a heavy, yet released manner. Last Edited By: unspoken whisper 09/10/08 10:49 AM. Edited 5 times.
BeyondTenor		#6	[-]
Posts: 3297 (09/10/08 7:36 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Enough has been said here to thoroughly answer your question. I'm also led to believe something is wrong, because if it's easy to connect, it will NOT be shaky. That's contradictory in itself. I would love to hear. As far as hearing qualities in the voice go, it's definitely something that takes a lot of training, just like the vocal training does. You have to devote a long time to strong concentration and tough imitation. If you can't imitate a singer, you can't hear what they are doing correctly. - Josh Reach Beyond Everything... and you might find more than you were looking for in the first place. Domine Deus Omnipotens in cuius manu omnis victoria constistit. "The only easy day was yesterday." - Navy Seals
Admiraldowdy		#7	[-]
Posts: 898 (09/10/08 3:47 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	I had the same question about how some people had light easy mixes up high, and I couldn't. So I posted clips of all those people that had a light easy mix... This will be a good example to you that people can train into a light easy, non pushed sound. http://media.putfile.com/Neil-Sedako http://media.putfile.com/Leo-Sayer http://media.putfile.com/John-Denver-67 http://media.putfile.com/Frankiee-Vallie and most of all: http://media.putfile.com/Mark-White
unspoken whisper		#8	[-]
Posts: 215 (09/10/08 5:44 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	BeyondTenor wrote: If you can't imitate a singer, you can't hear what they are doing correctly. That is SO true. I hear the differences in coordination in singer's voices MUCH better now that I can actually coordinate and produce those sounds myself. Oh, I forgot to mention that sometimes you may have more trouble with a slightly lighter coordination versus a heavier one because even though the latter is more physical, you might not be giving the lighter coordination as much focused energy as you need. Since the heavier coordination requires more support, the natural tendency is to give it an appropriately high level of energy to correspond with the support, but it's easy to get lax with the lower pressure and not give enough energy.
tkogiah		#9	[-]
Posts: 52 (09/11/08 12:54 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Sweet you guys are awesome. Josh, I wanted to clarify it before but I wanted to wait until someone said something about it. When I mean shaky I only mean when I lean into it. I can sing connected and light all throughout my range without extra air, or scratches. Honestly I wish I had a mic to record it, I will see about getting my brother in law to let me use his computer to record this week. But when I try and *lean* into the sound to add more energy, then it gets shaky and can fall apart. But it doesn't fall apart as much as it used to, it usually gets shaky. I think whats going on is my voice has learned to stay connected with closure but the coordination isn't very strong yet, so it's almost breaking apart. I think that's why it's shaky. Does that make sense?

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What is a mix anyways?

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